What is the ideal context for Christian ministry? We could approach that question in different ways but for many of us the backdrop of freedom would be high up on our list of priorities.
On today’s podcast hear from Release International partner Pavel from Ukraine. His story might challenge some of our intuitions. Listen in as we talk about the current situation in Ukraine and how the war has prompted churches to pray and serve with a new urgency. Pavel also shares his story of growing up in the Soviet Union where being arrested and imprisoned was a common occupational hazard for Christian pastors. And, we talk about Pavel’s ongoing work today supporting persecuted Christians in Central Asia who are determined to reach out in a hostile context.
What is the ideal context for Christian ministry? We could approach that question in different ways but for many of us the backdrop of freedom would be high up on our list of priorities.
On today’s podcast hear from Release International partner Pavel from Ukraine. His story might challenge some of our intuitions. Listen in as we talk about the current situation in Ukraine and how the war has prompted churches to pray and serve with a new urgency. Pavel also shares his story of growing up in the Soviet Union where being arrested and imprisoned was a common occupational hazard for Christian pastors. And, we talk about Pavel’s ongoing work today supporting persecuted Christians in Central Asia who are determined to reach out in a hostile context.
Pavel: Ukraine, Russia, Central Asia
“To be a Christian pastor, you have to be prepared for persecutions. But it is not the only opportunity for you just to be persecuted. You have to preach the gospel.”
James: What is the ideal context for Christian ministry? We could approach that question in different ways but for many of us the backdrop of freedom would be high up on our list of priorities.
On today’s podcast I’m speaking to Release International partner Pavel from Ukraine. His story might challenge some of our intuitions. Listen in as we talk about the current situation in Ukraine and how the war has prompted churches to pray and serve with a new urgency. Pavel also shares his story of growing up in the Soviet Union where being arrested and imprisoned was a common occupational hazard for Christian pastors. And, we talk about Pavel’s ongoing work today supporting persecuted Christians in Central Asia who are determined to reach out in a hostile context.
Welcome, Pavel, to the Voice podcast.
Pavel: Hello, my dear brother James, I am more than happy to hear you and to talk with you, praise the Lord.
James: Thank you so much. Pavel, you are Release International’s partner for Central Asia, and we’re going to go on to talk about your work in that region a little later on, but you’re also a Ukrainian pastor. You’ve served in several places in Ukraine, including Kyiv and Mariupol. It must be absolutely heart-breaking for you right now to see what’s unfolding in your country. Can you tell us just as we start, a little of what your thoughts are for your homeland just now, and your people who are suffering so much.
Pavel: First of all, I would like to say that it was not really the beginning of the war, because the war started 8 years ago, and actually now we have a new wave, a new phase of the war. So on 24th February I woke up early in the morning because of the terrible explosions not far from my own house in the capital city of Ukraine, in Kyiv. And it was quite noisy, I would say, terrible explosions; not just my windows were trembling, the whole house was shaking. As a result of these military actions, probably you have heard a lot about it, at the present time 7 million people were forced to leave residential areas and go further to the western part of Ukraine, and more than 5 million of Ukrainians were forced to go outside of Ukraine, and now they are staying in Romania, in Poland, in Slovenia, Austria, Germany, some of them went to Sweden and some even went to the United Kingdom. First of all, I’d like to say to you that we appreciate very much indeed the hospitality of the population of the countries I mentioned. All the Ukrainians have had so warm a welcome everywhere.
James: Yes, we’re going to be covering a little bit more about this question of the Ukraine in the next Voice magazine. But let me just ask you quickly, how is the church in Ukraine affected by the war, and how are Christians there responding to what they’re seeing and experiencing?
Pavel: It will be convenient for me to start from Mariupol, describing the situation in this city. Because of the war you have heard already that 95% of buildings are destroyed by terrible military action. So many people died because of that and given the information regarding the evangelical churches: there were lots of evangelical churches in the city of Mariupol. At the present time, most of our brothers and sisters have moved to more secure places, especially the western parts of Ukraine. There are some brothers and sisters who decided to stay in Mariupol, but just a very few of them. And they asked me to send love and greetings to the rest of our Christian family throughout the world who are praying for them. What is the reason for them to still stay in Mariupol? To take care of the ministry, because in any way they have to continue their ministry, which means to preach the gospel to all other people who are in Mariupol. And to give them some possible humanitarian aid. For example, our church would supply people with food and with water also. So, our church is still trying to help local people, but, first of all, they pray and preach the gospel, and some of our neighbours who have never been in the church before – they always have been invited to come to the church and never wanted to before – now they have to stay in the church, and some of them became Christians; some of them started to pray.
There are some other areas of Ukraine that are more secure to live in – there is no military action except missiles and so on – which is still a terrible situation but what are our churches in these areas are doing? First, they continue to pray earnestly, every day, every night. I visited some churches in the western part of Ukraine; I was invited to preach there. And the meetings – every night we had the meetings lots of people came to the church to pray for the protection of the Lord. So, in some way it has affected the usual life of the Ukrainian churches in the sense that they started to preach the gospel more, they started to attend more prayer services and they are working, they are praying, and God is the only hope.
James: Thank you so much for that insight, Brother Pavel. Our hearts are really with your people right now and it must be so much on you to be thinking about. And our listeners can find out much more about this and the support also that Release International is providing to Ukrainian Christians in the next issue of the Voice magazine. Just go to releaseinternational.org/podcast to read and subscribe to that.
So, I want to take this opportunity to ask you a little bit more about your own story and background because I know that you worked as a pastor back in the Soviet era, and I understand that you were arrested, and you spent some time in a Soviet prison because of your Christian work. Can you give us a little bit of a background to that story and what your experience of prison was like?
Pavel: I have to say, many people ask me,: Did you ever expect the war from Russian side and I have to answer yes; it was expected by many Christians, by Evangelicals in our country and that’s because of our background. So, I came from a pastor’s family: my grandfather and my second grandfather were the pastors of evangelical churches and both of them stayed in the prisons in Soviet times. My father was arrested as well; he got 15 years’ imprisonment. And his wife, she got a term staying in the terrible camps and prisons for 10 years and she never came back: she died somewhere in Siberia in the terrible conditions. So my father became a widow. Later on he met my mother. But my mother also belonged to a pastor’s family and she was 25 years old – a simple village girl of 25 years old, but because her father was a pastor of an evangelical church she was also arrested. That happened to me also, and I was not really surprised by that because, you see, it was the very usual way for Christians in my country, the former Soviet Union; it was very natural, not just to believe in Christ but to suffer for Christ. I was arrested by the KGB and they put me in prison and my wife was told when your husband will come back from prison, you will be an old woman, you will ruin your life for nothing: it never happened, because Gorbachev came to power and I was released from prison quite soon. They put me in prison at the right time and I did not stay a very long time. Well, since that time, we got our freedom and I believed that it will be always like this – freedom. My father told me, ‘Son, I have a very strong relation with the Lord and I have had a vision about what is going to be in Ukraine. Listen to me, this is the word God is saying. It was like a prophecy, of what’s going to be. And he said it will be a terrible war; Russia will fight Ukraine, and it will be war for sure. And this was 15 years ago. My father told me. It was our last conversation.
James: Thank you. It’s amazing to hear your background story and it’s quite different from a typical Western Christian story. I was going to ask you how your prison experience shaped you for the future but from your answer, I understand that your prison experience was something you expected all along, so you were already shaped in that way to anticipate your freedom being taken away from you as a very realistic possibility as a Christian, and that’s not changed. So, I’m interested to ask you a little bit more about Russia and, you’ve touched on this already but, how would you compare the Russia of today with the Russia of 40 years ago? Do you think that the challenges for Christians in that region of the world have changed during that time? Do you think there’s a trajectory for things to become more difficult over time for Christians in the foreseeable future?
Pavel: Nothing compares. When the Soviet Union disintegrated, it was really freedom. Freedom everywhere, freedom for everybody. At the present time, the degree of freedom I would say, has just lasted in Ukraine. So, Ukraine looked like the island of freedom, because everything changed. First of all, the situation changed in Russia for the nation, because we have seen more and more bureaucracy. And on one hand they were claiming exactly as in the time of the former Soviet Union, there is freedom of religion, but what does it mean in modern Russia? They really gave some freedom for the orthodox church, which is, I’m sorry to say, manipulated by the government of Russia. And they support Putin’s regime; they support the Kremlin. So yes, there is full freedom for them to act in the ways that they are directed to do. But, talking about evangelicals, we have much more difficulties. When we compare with the situation 20 years ago, 25, 30 years ago, the situation is totally different at the present time. We planted our churches, and, well, we can see the result of that. But some other areas, where it was not possible to come and to plant the churches – we were trying, but it is not possible to come anymore. And the local authorities said to us, in a very understandable way, you will never be allowed to plant an evangelical church, because the only church we can recognise is the orthodox church under the leadership of the Moscow patriarch.
James: On today’s podcast, I’m speaking to Release International partner, Pavel. We’ve spoken about the current situation in Ukraine, and Pavel’s own experience being a Christian in the former Soviet Union. Keep listening as we go on to discuss Pavel’s current work supporting evangelists and church workers across Central Asia.
We’ll move on now to talk more about Central Asia. We know, of course, Central Asia is a vast region. It’s made up of several different countries, and the situation for Christians across those countries varies. And it varies across time as well. Can you tell me where things are most difficult now for believers in that region and where do things seem to be improving?
Pavel: Firstly, I’d like to tell more precisely which countries we are talking about in Central Asia. All of them are former Soviet republics: Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, and even there is the part of Uzbekistan where Christianity never was preached before, Karakalpakstan. They are Muslim countries. There is a distinction between Islamic countries and Muslim countries. When we say Muslim countries, it means they are populated by Muslims predominantly, but they have to have a constitution which at least theoretically proclaims the equal rights for everybody, which means everybody who wants to can be a Christian and so on. It’s proclaimed, but there is no real freedom for activity to preach the gospel openly. And apart from the persecutions from the state, there is another kind of persecution. To be persecuted by their own families, inside their own communities – it has happened many times in the countries we are talking about, especially the hardest place to work to proclaim Jesus Christ – I would say number one priority, number one on the list of the countries where Christians are persecuted – Turkmenistan. And still, there are not many Christians in this country. There are probably only two thousand Christians in this huge country. Tajikistan, probably dear Brother James, you have heard, some pastors they got arrested and stayed in prison and one pastor, Salib Sarah (?) he was the pastor of the Baptist church, in a city called Isfara, it was the only church. It is a big town, 124 mosques – and one single church. And Salib Sarah, the pastor, was killed. Christians must pay a high price for the opportunity to preach the gospel. We can report about many problems in Kyrgyzstan, in Uzbekistan, and especially Karakalpakstan. Christians are not able to register their churches, there is no freedom to preach the gospel openly, and some people have been arrested literally for just reading the Bible on the train, or something like that. There is no right to distribute Christian books. But – and this makes me glad – there is a national church. In each of the countries we are talking about, there is the national church which consists of people of different nationalities; there are some Russians, but less and less in number, some Ukrainians, but less and less, but instead of them there are more and more Tajiks, Tartars, Kazaks, Uzbeks, Turkmenian people, local people who came to Christ, and there are more and more pastors from these nationalities, local pastors. So the national churches in Central Asia are self-sufficient, self-supportive and that makes me glad.
James: That’s so encouraging to hear. Every tribe, nation, language and people is the vision of heaven, isn’t it, and we’re seeing that in Central Asia. Can you tell us, particularly when it comes to persecution or opposition that Christians in these places face, how is it that your ministry or projects are helping Christians who are persecuted?
Pavel: There are some pastors who are Tajiks, and Tartars, and Uzbeks, local people, but we must understand that all of them are the first generation of Christians. Their parents, their grandparents never have been Christians: they were Muslims. So our brothers and sisters need to be instructed in many ways. They need advice: how to arrange everything properly, the building, planting of churches; they need Christian education. And its very important for them to get advice on how to deal with persecution. Our experience from the time of the Soviet Union is very much useful for them. To be a Christian person, you must be prepared for persecution. But you have to preach the gospel. You must be a mission minded person. You will probably be hated by the surrounding community; you will have some problems with state relations and so on, but it is very important to help them understand that their policy, if I can say policy, is not just defensive; rather, to go ahead, to fight for Christ and preach the gospel. And what is really important we have more and more preachers and even missionaries from these countries.
James: God will build his church, and opposition cannot stand against that. It’s amazing to hear how diverse and rich the body of Christ is, and it’s not dependent on Western missionaries, or finance: God’s church is moving outward all the time. It’s just amazing to hear how mission-minded our persecuted Central Asian brothers and sisters are. Thank you for that. So, has the work in Central Asia been impacted by what’s going on in Ukraine just now, the war and all the Russian attention that’s been paid in that direction?
Pavel: As I already mentioned, our dear brothers, they definitely needed the Bible education, Bible training, to get some experience how to build and plant the local churches, according to the pattern from the Bible and our own experience. So, lots of them visited us in Ukraine, and they have been invited by Ukrainian churches. At the present time, it is very difficult for us to go to Central Asian countries as well. We are still in touch with them, but we are not able to see each other not as often as before and it’s quite complicated for them to come to Ukraine. But I’m very happy to tell you that there are some Ukrainian missionaries – we sent them a long time ago, in windows of opportunity – and we continue to support those Ukrainian missionary families. We continue to support some Christian workers, local brothers in all the countries I have mentioned. We stay in touch with them very closely.
James: So, that brings us to the end of our conversation. It’s been amazing to talk to you, Pavel; thanks so much for your insight, your enthusiasm, and this wealth of knowledge you’ve been able to give us to inform our prayers for Ukraine, first of all, but also for Russia and, of course, for Central Asia. So finally, can you tell us, how can we best pray for you and for your ministry just now?
Pavel: Please pray, pray seriously, which means pray daily, every day if you can - early in the morning, in the night time, please pray for our persecuted brothers and sisters; we must help them. And let’s pray that God will open amazing opportunities and we will be able to do many things practically. Sorry I can’t tell you precisely about many details. I am not able to give any names; we have to think about security for our brothers and sisters. But please pray, trusting to the Lord and God will answer. There are no prayers which God is not able to answer. And I am not a young person any more, so I have a personal request: please pray for my health; I’d like to continue and I would be happy to continue, so let us pray about all that in the name of the Lord, and he will answer.
James: When doors of freedom come and go, but Jesus’ command to share the good news and make disciples never changes, Pavel is one person who has dedicated his life to that task. And although the war in his country and the hostility of persecution in other places causes him hurt and sadness, it’s not distracted him from his calling. In every freedom and in every crisis, he sees an opportunity for the good news of Jesus.
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